EnneagramThailand: We understand that you have been using the Enneagram as part of your consulting jobs very successfully. In addition, it has also helped in your own personal development. You’ve used it and made some powerful transitions in your life recently. So would you be so kind to share your experience with our audience inThailand? Especially to the seven’s like yourself who are interested in developing themselves with the Enneagram.
Ben: Yes, I will be happy to. What exactly you would like to know?
EnneagramThailand: Perhaps your general profile first, then a little bit about your work, and finally your personal life experience as related to the Enneagram.
Ben: My name is Ben Saltzman. I live inSanta Cruz inCalifornia and I started working with the Enneagram about 4 years ago. I primarily use it with coaching clients and small groups. People who come to me are usually in a leadership position. They want to function better at work and they are also stressed out in their personal life. They want to communicate better with their work team, motivate their employees, and have a more balanced life. So we end up doing work in both areas. They learn how to function better as a leader in an organization and in their own personal development.
I deliver workshops on the Enneagram, some introductory workshops that are just a day and a half, some more in depth workshops that are three days with the panels. We do a lot of programs specifically to teach people how to coach to deep level change with the Enneagram. How to use the Enneagram to shift peoples hidden beliefs and deepen their self-understanding. They shift what they pay attention to in the world, uncover their biases and emotional patterns, and this changes their behaviors in a more permanent way.
EnneagramThailand: How would you describe your approach as different from other similar workshops around?
Ben: Many coaching (workshops) teach coaches to use techniques at a very surface level, we found out that if you coach using techniques, behaviors will change but the behaviors usually shift back in a couple of months. The improvements in clients results are only temporary. Once we work at a deeper level and shift how clients pay attention to the world, then the behavior changes are more permanent. They start to evolve and develop in what some call a spiritual way breaking free from their false self. I believe that we not only have a responsibility to improve clients business results, but also to relieve their suffering, to improve their quality of life, even if they don’t ask directly for it.
After years of coaching that made small changes or short term changes, it became obvious that deepening self insight and business success go hand in hand. Now clients see their behavior change and they get the spiritual development piece at the same time.
The one-day time management classes, high energy motivational speakers, and easy to use assessment tools (such as the Myers-Briggs and DISC profiles) just don’t generate the changes we are looking for.
EnneagramThailand: Could you be more specific on this? For example, what sort of things other people have done that you said did not work? What kind of theory and end-results compared to what you have done?
Ben: OK, I’ll describe a case study for you.
A client who is the type Five on the Enneagram comes to me and he is a CEO of a fifty person organization. The problem he reports is, “The people who are on my management team are not doing what I tell them to do in our staff meetings. We get together; I tell them to carry out some plan in the meeting, everybody leaves, and the next month they come back to the meeting and they have not done it.” And the CEO is pissed off because people are not doing what he wants them to do.
Through our coaching discussions we find out that he is a type Five. So in the back of my mind, I am starting to think about the typical problems type Fives have as managers. And we start to explore them.
Fives tend to retreat from sustained interaction with their co-workers. It turns out he doesn’t have a lot of contact with the people on his team. They feel like he is distancing himself and he often “backs into his cave” rather than being out there working with his team. I question him, “What do you think the result of that is?” I give him attention practices so he can start to witness himself pulling back from contact with his staff, and he can start to watch for their reactions.
I ask him about what happens in the meetings. He says, “Well, I give everybody the exact information that they need to know to do their jobs. I give them very precise direction and the information is very clear.” I start asking him questions about how they are receiving the information: “How do they feel about it when you tell them what to do?”
And he says, “Well, I give the information and I am very clear and they know exactly what to do.” And I say, “That’s not a feeling. That’s information. I know you are very precise with the information. I want to know how they respond to you emotionally. Do they understand it; are they enthusiastic; are they angry at you when you tell them? Try to bring up an image in your memory about how they are responding.”
And he thinks and he goes “I don’t know!” I say, “OK that’s your attention practice: I want you to come back and tell me how they are emotionally responding when you give them directions.”
He comes back two weeks later for our next coaching session and he tells me “Well, I looked to see how they respond.”
I say, “That’s great. So what are their feelings when you are giving them the information.” And he says, “I have no idea. I still can’t tell.”
This is a five who doesn’t pay attention to feelings. I say, “Let’s talk about our body language. When they are leaning forward that means they are engaged...” We talk a lot about how to identify emotions and how to determine what emotions he is feeling.
And then the next time he comes back he says, “ I saw it a little! I know how they are responding. Some of them were angry. Some of them were excited.” So he is paying attention to a new thing. He is not just paying attention to the information exchange in meetings now. He is paying attention to emotional responses. And if people are pissed off, he can address that now. He has a new way of looking at the world that allows him to do his job better. Does that make sense?
EnneagramThailand: Yes, lots of sense.
Ben: Good. So the nice part about this Enneagram system is that he develops as human being as well as getting better business results. He is kind of doing his own spiritual work as well as getting what he wants out of the business world. So if I were a coach that was using techniques, I would not
be trying to change how he pays attention to the world. I would be telling him: “Use these words if you want him to do X.” Tell him directly, “If you don’t do X, you will loose your bonus, or your project, or you might be fired!”
EnneagramThailand: Or some other motivational techniques….
Ben: Yes. Or the CEO might have the staff member write down a list of what they are supposed to do after the meetings. That would be a technique. The CEO says, “When I give you directions write it down and show me the piece of paper. Then we are both on the same page. You know what you are supposed to do and I know what I am supposed to do.” That’s a technique. It is more surface level than where I want to do my work with clients.
EnneagramThailand: So in other words your approach is that in order to get the result we want which is in fact to change the external world, we have to change our internal world first. Is that correct?
Ben: Yes. The way we pay attention to the world shapes our experience, our self image, and our beliefs. What we are looking for?
Our friend the CEO is realizing his own emotions, he has shifted what he is paying attention to: what he is looking for His environment has changed. He is not just looking at information and exchange of knowledge. He is now looking at the emotions out in the world, which is a blind spot for type Five.
Each personality type has their blind spots the things that they can’t see. So as you coach them, you try to direct their attention into the blind spot so that they can see themselves and see the world more clearly.
You have to be careful with this and start at the edges. If you start talking to them directly in their blind spots they often react strangely. They can’t hear what you are saying. I’ve seen clients have short breaks with reality where they stare blankly for a minute, get disoriented and confused, or grip the table like their world is shaking. In a way it is, you’re trying to show them something they’ve never seen or experienced before…
For the type five the blind spot was feelings, both his own and others.
EnneagramThailand: Great! Great job!
Ben: Thank you.
EnneagramThailand: On the other hand, if your client is an emotional type, then your advice would be the opposite.
Ben: Yes, well not exactly.
The good example is type Two’s who are very emotional and heart-felt. They find connection with everybody who they are managing and they really want to join with them and give of themselves.
So for them, a lot the work is around setting boundaries and limits. Asking new questions. What is friendship? What is work? What is the difference between friendship with the boss or working for the boss? Because there are differences that Two’s don’t want to see usually.
A lot of goal-setting helps Two’s ”What do you really want?” Because Two’s have a problem of just giving themselves over to somebody else and losing their own force and direction: People can talk them into things. If you’re coaching a Two ask them, “What there is your agenda at work?” They really have to improve their self-knowledge. They need to learn to watch themselves do their type Two dance.
An example of a practice I might assign them would be: “I just want you to notice yourself giving your agenda away in the meeting tomorrow and I want you to practice setting limits at least once in that meeting,” that would be a developmental area for them.
In contrast, a technique kind of coaching intervention might be: “I want you to write down your agenda before each meeting so that when you go into the meeting you know what you want to say.” It is a little more surface level. It would be helpful, but it doesn’t lead directly to a fundamental shift in their personality.
EnneagramThailand: In your work, you have applied the Enneagram to help people in the business area. Have you also applied this into your client’s other areas of life like personal growth, relationships, family or whatever?
Ben: Yes, let me think of a good example of that. A couple of type Eight clients came to me because their stress levels were shooting through the roof. Their anxieties were just huge.
EnneagramThailand: Both of them were Eights?
Ben: Yes. One of them suffers because she has no personal relationships and has no real self-worth: “I don’t think I am valuable.” “Who would have me anyway?” are some of the underlining messages for her. So her relationships were really suffering and she has not been in a one-to-one relationship for a long time. The other Eight…, her stress level is so strong that she did not feel any real connection with her husband.
The coaching started in the business world because they came to me saying, “My business life sucks!” But pretty soon, they start talking to me about their personal life, what’s going on in their relationships, and what’s going on in their friendships, that sort of thing. I have a real core believe that whoever we are outside of work, we are in the same person in work. We just think that we are different. People will say, “Oh, I’m a completely different person at work.” Yah, right! You react to the same thing. If you are an Eight, you react to people hurting other people who are smaller and vulnerable. You are not aware of the impact that you have on
other people and that happens outside of work and inside of work. You can’t change that. You can modify it a little bit but that is still a big piece of who you are.
With eights, we do a lot of work around the impact that they have on others in meetings. The self-awareness they develop has a softening effect that affects the relationship they have with their husband or wife as well. Increased self-awareness changes your behavior. And that change doesn’t happen only at work. It happens in all walks of life. We happen to focus more on work originally. But if your self-awareness goes up, you’ll always start to see how others react to you with more clarity.
So once an Eight has seen enough people react in fear and tell the Eight, “Oh my God! You are overwhelmingme.” at work, they can start to pull their energy back in and not be so forceful.
Sometimes it happens with their best friend before it happens in the office! So you will find that an Eight might learn how to develop through a relationship outside of work, where they feel more comfortable, especially with the significant others, wife or husband or something like that. And that development will slowly make its way into work.
We have some Eights that just don’t realize their influence in the room and we video tape them. For instance, we can video tape the actual board meeting and show them, “This is what you say and then sweeping to the others so they can see what the impact they have to the rest of the group. And I play it back to them later and say, “All right, this is you towering over someone.What do you think they are feeling--what were they going through when you did this?”
So they start to self-observe in a more refined way. They learn to open up and be more vulnerable with people and sometimes that has to start with people who they feel safe with. Sometimes that happens at work at the very beginning and sometimes that has to happen outside the work before it happens inside work. They’re softening. They don’t feel that they have to dominate or control the environment so much.
Developing self-awareness that helps. And intentionally opening up and sharing parts of themselves with people is very difficult for them to do, but tends to really help them with their personal development and improve their connection with co-workers. So the co-workers don’t feel like the Eight is a Mac Truck constantly hitting them over and over and over.
EnneagramThailand: Can I say that based on these actual cases you have mentioned, we can imply that the Enneagram in itself actually has a legitimate place in a business environment as something that produces result for business.
Ben: Oh, yes.
EnneagramThailand: You can see this from your own experience?
Ben: Dramatic changes. Corporate directors and managers have come to me in tears after a eight-month coaching program saying “Oh my God. Thank you. I’m not as stressed, I’m not caught in my old pattern of behavior as much.” Or, “My team is functioning well due to my personal growth.” And the people consistently tell me stories about how it starts in business and moves on to their personal life, such as: “The results at work are good, but what’s really important is that my relationship with my wife (or husband) is great now. Thank you!”
The changes you can generate with the Enneagram are significant and observable. And clients are willing to pay good money for them.
EnneagramThailand: And the companies also become receptive to this Enneagram training?
Ben: Some. Some companies are very receptive. Sometimes people back off saying, “Hey no, no, no. (Bens hands are up making a pushing motion.) This is too deep, or too scary, or too religious.” I have run into the people who are not ready and won’t participate in the training, but most of them do. I would advise not introducing the Enneagram until you have credibility as a coach or consultant, and you feel a level of trust is built between the members of the group. You don’t want to give them a weapon to use against each other if they are locked in conflict.
When we approach potential customers we are starting to sell business results rather than talking about the Enneagram. We are coming out with “The Nine Types of Leaders” soon. It is a workbook that includes descriptions of the nine personality types as Leaders. We used business friendly language rather than spiritual language when we wrote it so corporations feel more comfortable using the system.
But speaking from my real-life experience, I often hear customers say, “This is really helpful. We are working better as a team instead of fighting each other and getting lost in hidden agendas.” Or “Now I understand why my Six partner always wants so much information. It’s not that he doesn’t trust me. It’s just who he is.”
However, the changes in business are not just because of the Enneagram. We have trained facilitators who are very good at developing business solutions. We only use talented coaches who are trained in skill building, giving feedback, doing deep-level work, and developing Visionary Leaders. So there are a lot of skills going into the business besides an understanding of the Enneagram. You have to have competent facilitators and coaches in order to run the whole program. In any case, I still reckon that as a tool, or part of the package, it (the Enneagram) is very powerful.
EnneagramThailand: Let's bring the topic close to home. So far we talked about how you have used the Enneagram for other people. Now we would like to know how you have used it for yourself. What impact does it (the Enneagram) have on you own life, if any?
Ben: Ok, I will start off with how I was before the Enneagram, then where I am at now. 'm a type Seven on the Enneagram. So, I do a lot of multi-tasking and bouncing from one thing to other to other. As a result, finding a career that I want to stick with is very difficult. Similarly, staying in relationship long term is very difficult. I've talked with many Sevens in 20, 30, and 40 year marriages, but that wasn't me. For me, a year and a half or two years is the longest relationship that I had. It was difficult to face these patterns in my life. But it was enlightening as well. This work has brought about traumatic changes in me.
EnneagramThailand: Could you be a little more specific if you don't mind? For example, you said your relationships did not last very long. How did they end? Why?
Ben: How did they end? Usually they end abruptly. Most of the time I ended them, and I didn't have a lot of awareness of the impact that I had on the other person. Because it was so easy for me to go on to someone else and get so excited about what else is out there, I'm leaving people wallowing in misery. And without ever experiencing that kind of hurt and sorrow, (these emotions are blind spots for Sevens) I have no idea! I'm just assuming that they are going to move on just like I'm moving on. You know how hard can it be? It is bad for week or two but on to the next adventure! There is somebody out there…
So I was really hurting a lot people and not knowing it. And I had to hear that a couple of times before it sunk in. When I broke up with a girlfriend she told me, "Ben, you know you really affect people." She was being very serious and I kind of heard it and knew that it was important at the moment, but really I just brushed it off. I thought, "Yes, of course I do," and then I just kept moving on.
I think inside me something was triggered anytime our relationship got deeper that said, "I want to get out." So if I met my girlfriends parents and they liked me, that was a little scary and I started looking in other directions. Or when we got real about what''s important to us I could really feel that we were getting into more connection with each other, I wanted to pull out of the relationship. Then some other women started looking good to me.
That was then, but one of the gifts (of the Enneagram) that I have gotten is that I can see those thoughts now and most of the time say, "Oh! That's my type showing up." It's easier to stay in a relationship now knowing that the looking around part is not authentic or is not helpful. It's type behavior. It takes a long time to see yourself to witness your pattern. But it's very helpful to be able to do that.
EnneagramThailand: That was a very good illustration of a Type 7's dilemma from your very own life. Any other example you would like to share?
Ben: Another problem that I was facing was people thinking that I was just surface level, meaning not talking about anything real, just discussing this theory and that idea, kind of bouncing around. I was pretty sick of not having real impact on people. I think Sevens often lack an underlying a power. There is not a lot of strength underneath because we avoid pain and anger and fear going into those places. To others it feels like there is something light or weak or that there is just a lack of depth.
As I started seeing that more and more, I didn't like it! I really got sick of myself. Here I am feeling secure, some of this challenges me and I turn away and I avoid it. It is instinctual, I didn't even know I was doing it. It happens so fast. I didn't even see it until I started to watch myself. Until I became really aware of the anxiety and the instinctual avoidance of conflict.
Because Sevens rationalize our behaviors so fast, we come up with the excuses for everything that we do. So somebody can confront me and I can turn away in fear and tell myself comforting excuses explaining why. The sad part is that I don't even realize that I've turned away from whatever it is. I can turn away so quickly and not even know that I have done it until I reflect on my behavior or until I watch myself do it again, and again, and again. I finally get to see it in the moment when somebody says something and I don't back off. I stay in the conversation and say, "No, that's not ok with me" and they realize that I'm gonna be here, and strong, and I'm not going to leave…"
It's only then that they start to feel some of my power, they start thinking, "Oh this guy is for real." It takes relationships down to a much deeper level once they know that you are real. I have coaching clients who work with me. The coaching I conduct with my clients has deepened as my personal development has deepened. I used to primarily teach using a lot of techniques and problem solving and it was fun. Clients came and they engaged in the coaching and we laughed a lot. But they weren't experiencing transformation.
Now people come to me and I am very real and very present for them relative to how I was before. The depth that they can go to has increased. I can hold more space for them so they can drop down into what is going on in their lives, what is real, to the underlining problem. This leads to deeper level shifts and personal transformation.
I think if you push on somebody and they go away, you don't feel safe. Young Sevens often go away when they are pushed. Some clients push to test you. Type Eight clients strongly push me and if I go away, they are not going to tell me the real deal!
EnneagramThailand: Could you elaborate on this?
Ben: Let's say you are in a coaching conversation or a regular conversation with the type Eight and they start getting pissed about something that has happened in the world. So their energy gets stronger and they lean toward you and they emphatically say, "It's like this....it's like this....and it's like this...." (Ben talks louder and waves his finger in my face for emphasis.)
A Seven caught in Type in this situation starts to feel anxious in their body. They want to leave the room. They might go to humor and make a joke, to break the tension.. Or they might pull back into themselves and lean back away from the offending Eight.. Well, none of these reactions create safety for the Eights. None of those actions give them something to smash up against, to be solid with, and that's what they are searching for.
Now if you're an Eight client I am there for you matching your energy saying, Yah! I get it that you are angry, this is pissing you off!" They know that I'm present and I'm here with them and I hold space but don't leave my body. I don't make a joke. I don't break the tension. I can sit with it a lot longer than I used to and that allows them to go down into the real deal that is their deeper truth.
EnneagramThailand: In other words you are not only 'hearing' but you are also 'feeling' the pain at the same time with them. Or in the Sevens world, we are sharing the negative experience with them?
Ben: Yes. Sometimes sharing it. Sometimes just staying present and receiving it. I don't have to be angry and hurt but I do have to be here with you while you are angry and hurt. I can't retreat up into my head and make a joke or react in my type. I have to be able to hold this space and be present. "Yes, I get it. That hurt." Then they can start dropping down and they can stay with their experience as they relate it to me.
EnneagramThailand: I guess this new self-discovery, which produces an improvement in your professional life, also improves other areas of your life such as your love life perhaps? Does such transformation happen in that department as well?
Ben: Yes. Anytime when pain comes up, or heart, or emotional depth, the natural tendency of the 7's is to shoot out of there. So who is going to do anything with you? Who is going to follow? How can you have a relationship if you leave every time it gets deep?. I' m not interested in surface relationships anymore. They are fun and stimulating in the mind but when it comes down to it, who cares? That is not a relationship I want now. I want a relationship with real people in it. A relationship where I can feel you and you can feel me.
EnneagramThailand: But what's wrong with 7's looking for stimulation and pursuing pleasures? Isn't it human nature to seek pleasure and avoid pain? After all, "If it feels goes, do it!" right?X
Ben: Perhaps, but the way we (7's) do it is self-defeating. See, Sevens spend all this time running around looking for stimulation. But it's a false hunt if you do it though your head. All that stimulation that we're seeking we're never gonna get if it's only mental. If it's about ideas that are out in the future it's not real stimulation. That's mental masterbation! All the stuff that we are looking for there in the future is right here if we are present to it.
Perhaps, but the way we (7's) do it is self-defeating. See, Sevens spend all this time running around looking for stimulation. But it's a false hunt if you do it though your head. All that stimulation that we're seeking we're never gonna get if it's only mental. If it's about ideas that are out in the future it's not real stimulation. That's mental masterbation! All the stuff that we are looking for there in the future is right here if we are present to it.
When these people open up to me it is like: "Yah, something has shifted in the world." They knew something happened there. I knew something happened there That is real satisfaction. That is stimulation. There is a sense of completeness that I get it through the work now. It's not just the thrill of throwing ideas around which is just fun. Sometimes I love that. You know, it is a nice break, but it is a side dish, it's no longer the entree. There is another level if you sink down into it, it is worth it. It is worth doing the work on yourself.
EnneagramThailand: It is amazing that what you just described seems to coincide with what Helen teased me about as a 7 during our lunch just today. Contrary to what we usually think of ourselves or what most people think of us (type 7's) that we are "happy people", she said that we are only "thinking" happy--by pursuing all these pleasurable things and options--that we have never really experience the feeling of it!
Ben: Yes. It's as if we have a mental picture that we are happy so we (big sigh!) deceive ourselves into thinking that we are happy. You know if you're just spinning in the future, you can't be happy because you're out there not here now. The only time that you can be happy is at this moment. Because the only time you can be happy is feeling the presence. So we are mentalizing and thinking about future and thinking we're happy. It's the self-deception.
EnneagramThailand: This sort of strikes me. We tend to believe, and most people endorse the idea that we are happy people, right? So how could it be that we are happy but not experiencing the feeling of it (happiness)?
Ben: I think we're fearful people. I think we are anxious people. That's what we're running from and we cover it up with a thin layer of happiness. Because If we stop running, there will be emotions there. And that's scary so we run i nto the future, run into our heads. We are not really aware of the anxiety and the fear… at least I wasn't. I still do it a lot but every once in a while I can see it.
And when I can see it clearly, it looks like a low level anxiety or fear constantly pushing me, making me try to be funny or light or thinking about the future, running, running, running, tiring, I am sick of it! What we are running from? Ourselves! What am I running from? I don't know. I am running from sorrow. I am running from commitment. I'm running from a lot of things that seem to be a ghost. But When you stop running, and face them. They are not real. They are just shadow, a phantom or a paper tiger. Yet we're still running, pretending we are happy
EnneagramThailand: But to stop running or go to that deeper level means you have to be with some negative experience right? On a superficial level lost in stimulation we can stay positive. We don't need to get to the pain, as soon as we touch on it (the pain), we go to the next thought…
Ben: Right.
EnneagramThailand: So why not continue only on the positives? Why get deep down and dirty and on the pain? Why is it worth it for you?
Ben: Because I just don't want these surface relationships. I am sick of not connecting. I am sick of feeling weak. I am sick of feeling like there is no truth; there is no strength; there is no power; there is no beauty; there is no connection to something else. It's not fulfilling! There comes a time when you start questioning what the larger meaning is and I hit that time.
I used to be a movie junkie. I remember as a kid going to movies. We would go in and pay for one movie and hop theatres watching 4 different movies and we would come out 8 hours later just like a zombie. That's great. I loved it and I love movies. I keep going, and going, but I've got to tell you it's not what it used to be now. It's feel a little bit more empty to me.
Now, my personal development, being of service, and the relationships with the people in my life are much more important. For me to continue to evolve, for me to be in a good relationships with others, and for clients who are working with and connecting with me to develop, I have to go into sorrow and pain. And why not? What's wrong with it? I mean what the hell are we running from? So you cry. That's another experience. So you are angry. That's another experience. These emotions are secret energies that are running through us all the time. For Sevens and Fives and Sixes, being head-centered, we lose out on such a big world because we don't experience these emotions.
I remember looking out and watching other people who were connecting from a heart felt place. They were down in their hearts and really enjoying the emotional energy running between them. And I remember just thinking "Wow! I don't I ever connect with anybody that way." I don't feel the exchange of emotion that those two are involved in right now." I experience exchange of information, exchange of ideas, playful energy,and surface level stuff, but it wasn't a body sensation. It wasn't a connection on the emotional level and I wanted that. I wanted to feel more real with people and I still do.
EnneagramThailand: So it seems you have made the transition to cross over your line, your type pattern as a Seven, at least you seem to know your traps and the direction to go.
Ben: Yes and no. I have been much more aware of my personal agenda thanks to the Enneagram. Step-by-step, I have made some progress towards that direction and the results have been rewarding. However, it is a journey that I am in it for the long haul.
You know, I go to sleep (symbolically) often and I go back to the old Seven traits and forget I'm on a journey. And I forget to sink into myself and I forget to be real. And when that happens life doesn't mean as much. It is not as powerful. But there is enough going on into my life that requires me to show up that I can't go to sleep often. I think that that may be my savior.
I think my clients are the real gifts because I feel some responsibility for being real for them. So it keeps me on the path. For instance, I don't do mind altering drugs or drink alcohol for 24 hours before I see them and I see clients four, five, sometimes six days a week.
When I'm preparing for them I try to find my center. When they come into the room, I try to be more present for them than I am with just my friends. So at one level they really help me to stay on the path; help me work on myself because I feel some responsibility for my relationship with them and for helping them.
EnneagramThailand: What about the issue of love, relationship and commitment. Any noticeable improvement there?
Ben: My relationship pattern is serial monogamy (laughing!) Well, I have been with my current girlfriend for a year. I can tell you this shift in the relationship and then I will talk about commitment.
The changes in the relationship are that I am much more willing to be with her when she is feeling sad or, stressed, or vulnerable. These are natural emotions that we go through. For a young Seven, I think it is very difficult to be sad or vulnerable ourselves or be present for someone while they are sad or vulnerable. We don't seem to want to do that.
And again I think that cuts into our relationships. It keeps us from being really in a relationship. So that's been a real growth edge for me and I continue to work on it but I feel that it's easier now.
EnneagramThailand: And you are still afraid of commitment?
Ben: Who knows. I have been in this relationship about a year, I can't say that I've conquered it all (laughing!) I wish I could tell you I've been in a relationship 10 years and say, "See, I've got over it." I can't tell you that. I can tell you something that has changed though. The idea of having a family is something I want now. The idea of creating a career that is on-going that generates income so that I can buy a house and create a life, and create family is appealing to me. That becomes more important all the time.
EnneagramThailand: What was it in the past?
Ben: It was just about enjoying my work.
EnneagramThailand: You didn't care about all these …
Ben: I didn't care about making a lot of money. I didn't care about settling in. I didn't care about creating a family. I didn't care about having a house. The question was, "At what job can I have the most fun and play as much basketball as possible. You know, that was where I was. That has shifted in a past couple of years.
EnneagramThailand: Perhaps because you are getting old?
Ben: I think a lot of things have happened. I think I am getting older. I think it is because there has been a shift in what my desires are. I think most of this has to do with the Enneagram, frankly. You know, I think the type Seven aversion to living with limits shows up in not committing to career and relationships. If you commit to one career and one relationship, that feels limiting.
I think a lot of things have happened. I think I am getting older. I think it is because there has been a shift in what my desires are. I think most of this has to do with the Enneagram, frankly. You know, I think the type Seven aversion to l iving with limits shows up in not committing to career and relationships. If you commit to one career and one relationship, that feels limiting.
EnneagramThailand: Yes.
Ben: So the battle with commitment has been a strange process. I feel like every time that I commit to anything at a deeper level, the universe likes it and responds.
EnneagramThailand: The universe?
Ben: The universe , the organizing intelligence, whatever you want to call it. It enjoys it and responds. The universe says "Yeh. He is learning how to commit!" And it brings abundance in to my personal and business life.
EnneagramThailand: Can you be more specific?
Ben: You want an example don't you? OK, in my coaching and speaking career for a long time I thinking, "Am I going to make it work?," "Is this going to happen?" "Can I financially make it?" I coach two kinds of clients - Seekers who are on a personal, spiritual journey. Seekers want to be free of their limitations and their dysfunctional patterns of behavior. Seekers typically don't have that much money so I can't charge them as much.
I also work with organizational leaders who are under stress, juggling multiple projects, and have to manage numerous relationships. The coaching is more corporate and goal directed at the beginning but eventually they engage in their own development to solve the problems I've described. Leaders typically have more money or are funded by their organization so I can charge them more.
I was swamped with seekers and had only a trickle of leaders as clients. My Enneagram Panels Seminars and Coaching with the Enneagram seminars brought in only 8 people each. I was not bringing home the bacon.
I remember at one point thinking, "This is what I'm supposed to do. It is very clear. I feel very good when I present to a group. I feel very good when I connect with my clients, help them through something and assist them to evolve."
As I thought through that I felt my commitment to the work intensify. I became more committed and immediately more clients, and higher caliber clients started coming in. That's happened probably 2 or 3 times in the past couple years. I have more leaders as clients and attendance at my seminars jumped to 15 people, then to 30 people each.
Financially, my fears of not making ends meet dissolved. Now I'm on to bigger, better, more! How can I do on line training? How can I market my CD's? I still have trouble containing my Seven mind, but the financial anxiety has mostly lifted.
There are still times I question it and if I commit again saying, "This is what I'm going to be doing whether I go to jail or whether I lose my car or my house whatever." I commit because I think this work is really important. I like helping people with this system. It is what I'm supposed to be doing. Every time my commitment level drops, something in the universe shifts and abundance happens.
It happens in relationship too. As I am learning to commit, to be more present in relationships. The soul, or spirit that comes into my life in the form of my girlfriend is more spiritually suited to me. They are more willing to do relationship with me. They are more willing to be real. They are more spiritually evolved. I am attracted to higher caliber people. I think this sounds egotistical but I don't know how else to say it. Maybe they know I am getting in for real. So they are more willing to get into a relationship with me.
It seems like there are a lot of levels of commitment to drop down through and I hope there a lot more to go. Every time I go deeper and say, "Damn it I am going to see this through," Something comes into my life and symbolically says "Yup, Good job. We've been waiting! Thank God, you realize you're supposed to be doing this… finally!"
EnneagramThailand: Gee, that's certainly major breakthrough in life! Quite an extraordinary achievement for a 32-year-old guy to be saying all this. And I would believe that there are great many Seven's much older than yourself out there who have not reached this point in their lives. Do you contribute your such insight and development to the Enneagram?
Ben: The Enneagram is the big piece, augmented with more specific psychological and spiritual training. I work with the spiritual teacher who knows the Enneagram very well and I worked with a therapist who didn't know the Enneagram but was a talent. He helped me explore anger, created a safe place and took me into some sorrow and painful experiences I have had in the past. He helped me to explore it till I felt that I could cry. That was a nice release. Sevens learn to hold more depth through these experiences.
My current spiritual counselor has done work with me around "the inner child, " exploring rage and around sorrow. The losses of childhood, and of how my parents treated me. She does a lot of work around with me around experiencing emotions rather then just thinking about them.
I also design my own precise self-observation and focused attention practices.
EnneagramThailand: What about meditation?
Ben: I had a lot of trouble meditating. It's very difficult for me. Anytime I meditate my mind bounces into the future. So the things that really work for me are walking meditation or chanting Breath work in which I count as I take long breaths and some forms of Yoga work well as spiritual practices. But just sitting meditation is really hard. I do it but I don't think I am very good at it.
EnneagramThailand: You have painted a very good picture of the path laying ahead of us (Sevens). The last piece for me is how to translate the ideas we learned here into actual results in our life. In other words, we now understand what's our problem and what we need to do in general, but what are specific things to do on day-to-day etc?
Ben: Like getting in to our bodies? You do some of the things we've been talking about. Go learn how to cry. Go learn how to be angry or be around angry people. I spent a year trying to find angry people. I practiced sitting with them and being in my body as they got intense or hostile. Learn how to express it. (Ben gets more animated, he raises his voice with each sentence.) I tell you, get into your body because there are emotions down there. They want to come out but you've been running from them. You want to be real, you let them out!
Or go find something very hard to commit to. Stick with it! Keep monitoring your attention as it bounces into the future. Stay present! The Universe is going to open you up to a whole new world. You've got to do the work though. It is damn hard! It's hard to watch yourself and to push yourself into those areas. I've got compassion for you. It's really tough to do as a Seven but the pay off is huge.
EnneagramThailand: So be in touch more with our body or feeling and stick with the present through thick and thin?
Ben: Yes. And I would suggest you get somebody that will pull you in. I had to get help. I had to get somebody who can walk me down there. I told my teachers, "I'm coming to you. I want to feel this, I want to feel this, and I want to feel this. Can you help me?" It really works well.
EnneagramThailand: Well you have done a good job showing us the path with your insights and how-to lessons. But the last mile is for us to walk it ourselves. No easy way out but to endure the pain….
Ben: Yes. Pain is groovy! So it feels but there is nothing bad about it. We have this in belief. You have to face that fear. Yes, stand up, be a man and face that fear. I can't tell you all the secrets to it. I just know that as you become more self-aware, you start to get out of it. And you start to see yourself fall into type behavior over, and over, and over.
May be that what it takes for Sevens to realize that all these limitations that we think are we are avoiding are really self-imposed. If we don't get to choose how we are responding to the world, we are limited. You think you have unlimited options right now but you are full of crap. You are limited by your type! It is constraining you. It is holding you back. It's got you in a box and you can't get out of it until you see it clearly. So, go do the work! Be real! Stop skipping around from one system to another or one idea to another and face up!
I had to get ripped by a couple of people. You know, some teachers had to tear me up and I believe it doesn't have to be that way. I believe there are more humane ways to free Sevens from their ego without attacking them. But we definitely have to have people assist us and hold us accountable because Sevens rationalize and because we are so good at getting out of things that we don't want to do. I think Sevens need to have an advocate who is tenacious about pinning us down. We need to have somebody who is smart so we can't charm them and deceive them.
Their tenacity will bring us down into the emotions. If I start joking and I come up in to my head, my spiritual counselor says, "Ben, I need you to down in your body, ok?" I reply, "Ok, I will be in my body (sigh)." And then 10 minutes later, I pop up into my head again and she says, "Ben, drop into your body." "Ok Ok, I'm in my body!" Enrolling other people who know your challenges to help you grow is a critical piece